Mark Driscoll is a very popular preacher who's been featured on CNN, Fox, and ABC is the author of 15 books, and he is the current pastor at Mars Hill Church in Seattle.
Driscoll make it a point to remind all Jews, Muslims, atheists, humanists, Hindus, Buddhists, Taoists, Confucianists, Zoroastrians, Pagans, and most peer-reviewed scientists, etc. that they are going straight to hell. What's interesting is that he was named one of the most influential pastors in the last 25 years by Preaching magazine.
"In 2010, Preaching magazine named him one of the 25 most influential pastors of the past 25 years. His sermon podcast regularly occupies the top spot in iTunes’s Religion & Spirituality category, and his online audience accesses about 15 million of his sermons each year."
You gotta love a conversation with a hipster-preacher who openly believes you will suffer eternal flames and torture because you won't buy into their particular delusion--because he loves you.
This is an excellent example of what happens when you base your beliefs on fantasy and ignorance.
Ladies, if you'd like a taste of his bigotry, homophobia, and misogyny (just to name a few), check this piece on Jezebel.
The question now is how long will it be before someone (Jon) posts the Carlin video of God's "love."
Happy to oblige, Brother Dean.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QZ8hefESt7c
Also reminds me of Carlin's bit on the ubiquitous catchphrase of politicians everywhere, "God Bless America."
Delete"Listen. There are 200 countries in the world now. Do these people honestly think that God is sitting around picking out his favorites? Why would he do that? Why would God have a favorite country?
And why would it be America out of all the countries? Because you have the most money? Because he likes our National Anthem? Maybe it's because he heard we have 18 delicious flavors of Classic Rice-A-Roni!
It's delusional thinking! And America is not alone with this sort of delusions. Military cemeteries around the world are packed with brainwashed dead soldiers who were convinced God was on their side. America prays for God to destroy our enemies. Our enemies pray for God to destroy us.
Somebody's gonna be disappointed.
Somebody's wasting their fucking time.
Could it be...EVERYONE?"
And before anyone says "well hell isn't really a lake of eternal torture where the nonbelievers are sent, full of fire and smoke and burning and torture and anguish, where he will send them to live and suffer and burn and choke and scream and cry forever and ever 'til the end of time," just consider the words of Christ himself:
ReplyDelete"So it will be at the end of the age; the angels shall come forth, and take out the wicked from the righteous, and will cast them into the furnace of fire; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." (Matthew 13:49-50)
Okay so that's just one spot in one gospel where Jesus mentions hell as fire.
"And if your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter [heaven] crippled or lame, than having your two hands, to go to HELL, INTO THE UNQUENCHABLE FIRE." (Mark 9:43)
Or what about Revelation?
"But for the cowardly and UNBELIEVING and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death." (Revelation 21:8)
I've got more, I could keep going, but these are the first three that I found.
THANK YOU SO MUCH for posting those passages!
DeleteHere's the VERY short version; the long one is below:
The Lake of Fire is the second death, as the passage you gave says quite clearly. We all (good and bad) will be Resurrected, and the wicked will be killed again after the Final Judgment. End of story.
Okay, now here's the longer version...
Delete--First off, I don't deny that final punishment involves fire. I think that the fire is a metaphor, personally, but we'll take it as literal fire. So at least in that part, we can be in agreement that Jesus and the New Testament seem to be teaching Hell as a firepit or something.
--"There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth". This is not unexpected for a death sentence, so I don't see the problem. The death will be painful for some, perhaps for many. It's still a death.
--"Unquenchable fire"...I don't know what you are trying to prove with this phrase. You can't kill the fire. Doesn't mean you can't kill the people IN the fire.
--And FINALLY, the Apocalypse of Jesus (the Book of Revelation), the one book that started all this mess. Well, more like the people who read it without understanding Apocalyptic imagery. I'm going to need to explain some things before I get to the passage itself, so bear with me...
Apocalyptic imagery was a genre back in the day meant to use celestial and extreme images to convey coming events. One of the Genesis authors used it for Joseph in Genesis (Joseph's dream that the stars, sun, and moon would bow down to him, Genesis 37:9-10); the author didn't believe, nor did he write, that that LITERALLY happened; in fact, Jacob didn't take it that way at all, if you look at the passage. It was meant to prophecy his future reign as Pharaoh's 2nd in command.
The same goes for Jesus' prediction of the destruction of the 2nd Temple in Jerusalem (Mark 13:24-27. or its parallel, Matthew 24:29-31); the authors of these two Gospel passages weren't trying to convey the idea that in 70-72 A.D., those events happened (sun darkened, moon not giving its light, "stars" falling from Heaven, etc.) while the Temple was being destroyed, but rather that the consequences of the destruction of the Temple would be massive (and they were, but that's a tangent).
Now, to the Book itself (but not quite the passage yet; bear with me!): Apocalyptic imagery is always hard to interpret, and the Apocalypse of Jesus (The Book of Revelation) is certainly no exception; in fact, it's the poster-boy for hard to interpret passages. I don't know ANY theologian in history or today who believes that there was/is/will be a real ten-headed, seven horned beast (Rev. 13:1-10) who will rise out of the sea saying "G*d D*mmit!" all the time with all its mouths. I don't know even a single Christian PERIOD who holds to that. And why? Because it's apocalyptic imagery. Even more, it's apocalyptic imagery that is interpreted by the Book itself. If you look at Rev. 17, you see an interpretation (one that is itself not really easy to understand) of what the beast represents.
--Okay, NOW to the passage itself: Whenever you have an interpretation of apocalyptic imagery, you need to utilize it. In Revelation 20:14 and 21:8 (the very passage you posted!) the Lake of Fire is interpreted as the Second Death. The vampiric whore with a tattoo of her name on her head, riding on top of a freakish seven headed, ten horned animal that cusses people out and says nasty things about Jesus is said to be thrown into the Lake of Fire and tormented as well. Death and Hell/Hades are said to be thrown in as well. The vampiric whore-lady is interpreted as a city, the Beast as a bunch of governmental institutions, and Death and Hell/Hades are, well, Death and Hell/Hades. They don't get "tormented" in any real sense of the word. The imagery of "eternal torment" in apocalyptic literature (and no one denies that this is apocalyptic literature) is used to convey complete and total destruction, always.
I could elaborate further, if you so desire. The next one will try to be more concise, as I tend to ramble. I don't know how much of this stuff you know, which is why I'm explaining EVERYTHING.
Here's what Driscoll is telling children and adults at his church flocking to hear the "Word":
ReplyDelete"Jesus talks about hell more than does anyone else in all of Scripture."
Upon death, a believer’s spirit immediately goes to heaven to be with Jesus. Jesus gives us a picture in Luke 16:19–31 of existence after death. Lazarus, the godly beggar, goes to be with Abraham, while the self-indulgent rich man is in a place of torment.
Jesus, who has come back from death and is thus the expert on what awaits us on the other side, was emphatically clear that a day of judgment is coming when everyone will rise from their graves and stand before him for eternal sentencing to either worship in his kingdom or suffer in his hell. At the final judgment, all—even you—will stand before Jesus. Jesus’ followers whose names are written in the Book of Life will be with him forever. The Bible could not be clearer: “if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire."
So much for that "separation from god" thing.
The key to being a preacher is keeping a straight face when saying this shit to children and adults.
Or the better key is to do hermeneutics correctly, which Driscoll is horrible at.
DeleteA few problems with his claims, especially with the Luke passage:
--Even if this were taken as a "picture" of punishment (i.e., taken literally and not as a parable; in fact, a parable that was popular at the time, but parodied by Jesus, since in the original parable the rich man is in Abraham's Bosom, and the poor in torment), it's a "picture" of the interim state, NOT of final punishment. It's obvious because the rich man pleads with Abraham to send Lazarus "up" so that he could warn others of this place. You can't be in the "final punishment" BEFORE the "final judgment".
--In any event, it's a Jewish parable with a twist, as I said prior. It's meant to show that those who are walked over in this life will be taken care of and rewarded in the next. Wrong will be righted, with the Resurrection.
--Along with this idea of "Hell", Driscoll holds to an "eternal conscious torment" view of Hell, which is just woefully inaccurate. Matthew 10:28, John 3:16, Romans 6:23, 2 Thessalonians 1:9, and a whole host of other passages all point to Hell/final punishment being death. In fact, I argue that there is not a single verse teaching that Hell is a place of eternal conscious torment (I so hope someone will take the bait on that one, since there are a few popular passages in Revelation that people bring up in objection).
--Driscoll is not an intellectual, not by any stretch of the imagination. He's just not. Not at all.
--
Just to add to my argument that hell is ETERNAL PUNISHMENT in ETERNAL FIRE,
ReplyDeleteMatt 25:31-46
"31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’
37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’
40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’
41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the ETERNAL FIRE prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’
44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’
45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’
46 “Then they will go away to ETERNAL PUNISHMENT, but the righteous to eternal life.”
I don't know about you, but there seems there's a complete void of ambiguity in that passage.
Hold the phones: the Scriptures say that there will be a punishment...and an ETERNAL punishment??? Oh, fuck.
DeleteSo let me get this straight: the punishment is death (Romans 6:23, John 3:16, Matthew 10:28, 2 Thessalonians 1:9, Revelation 21:8, etc.), and that punishment will last forever. Okay, got it.
So the phrase "eternal punishment" is synonymous with "eternal death" or "death from which there is no return" or "everlasting destruction".
So yeah, I can see where one could get, "Never going to be killed/destroyed, but rather going to be tortured, even though the punishment is death not torture" from "eternal death".
And holy Kardashian Dutch Ovens, Batman! In verse 46 of the very passage you present, only the RIGHTEOUS will get eternal life?
DeleteSo how does your interpretation of Jesus swing that? "Sorry, wicked; you don't get eternal life. However, You will live forever in a place of eternal torment, even though I just said you don't get eternal life. Well, I never even said that you'll live in a place of eternal torment, I'm just allowing my Platonic followers in the future to project that image onto my sayings via the passages that will be written down of this event. So you won't live forever, but you, well, okay you will. So strike that 'only the righteous get eternal life' part. Well, strike ALL of those passages, 'cuz there are a lot of them. Oh? They're already printed out that way? Shit. Oh well, let the textual scholars sort it out. Where's my bourbon?"
First, I'd just like to say that the smartass tone you used was uncalled for. There was no need for that, I'm trying to have rational discourse with you and you felt the need to get all snarky and that's just not cool. You have become the same person as the atheists you claim to have encountered in the past. I will not tolerate that. I had to get that out of the way.
DeleteSecond, I drink scotch not bourbon.
Third, you seem to be missing the point of my argument, namely that the punishment for not believing in your version of god is some form of fiery torture. Whether that lasts for eternity I don't really give half a shit, because quite frankly there's no evidence that such punishment exists anyway.
Fourth, I'd point you in the general direction of one of your favorite people, Matt Slick, and his take on this issue at CARM. http://carm.org/hell-eternal
Finally, I'd just like to offer this point. Look, Adam, I've been very patient with you up until this point. I will be patient no longer, as you have insulted my intelligence. So I'm putting you on the spot. No more of this circumtheological bullshit. I'm officially applying Hitchens' Razor. Until you can provide evidence to me that the Christian god exists, I will not participate in these discussions. The burden of proof is entirely on you. We'll be waiting, and hey, if you're successful...THERE'S A NOBEL PRIZE IN IT FOR YOU! The perfect bragging right! So get to work, we're excited to hear your conclusions!
So Jon....please provide evidence that God does not exist...or is it just the Christian God?
DeleteThis is why i like Jesus...Hundreds of years before his arrival they spoke of Him. Where he would be born, what he would ride into Jerusalem on, how he would die, why he would die, what tribe he would come from, that he would rise again, that he would come from a virgin - what an incredible coincidence...what do you say about Jesus...but you cant say he was a good teacher (he didnt give us that option), he was either Lord or a Liar or a Lunatic?
ReplyDeleteThis is why i like Jesus...Hundreds of years before his arrival they spoke of Him. Where he would be born, what he would ride into Jerusalem on, how he would die, why he would die, what tribe he would come from, that he would rise again, that he would come from a virgin - what an incredible coincidence...what do you say about Jesus...but you cant say he was a good teacher (he didnt give us that option), he was either Lord or a Liar or a Lunatic?
ReplyDelete