Up@dawn 2.0

Thursday, January 30, 2014

Group One: The Multitudes of One "True" Faith

Q: The Dalia Lama, in his book The Universe in a Single Atom: The Convergence of Science and Spirituality, that if science proved religious claims in Buddhism false, then one must abandon those religious claims? A: True

Not to beat a dead horse that doesn't exist, but I thoroughly enjoyed our semantic discussion of faith, belief, and hope.  I feel very lucky to be in a class with such sharp, thoughtful students.

Concerning our discussion, the overarching problem that kept surfacing indicated that any definition of faith suffers (or benefits) from the same indeterminate vagueness as the nature of God.  When theists are often pressed for evidence of their particular god in a non-religious setting, for example, the angry, jealous god of the Bible--the one that wins wars and football games, sends tornados to punish homosexuality, and assures priests that women are not worthy of leadership positions--is no where to be found.  When pressed for evidence, this god suddenly becomes the "first cause," the "unmoved mover," love,  the sustainer of the universe outside of space, time and logic, etc.  Then, non-believers are often accused of not understanding the nature of faith, or all attempts to define faith are incomplete.

The trouble with this view is that the portrayal of God as some sustaining force in the the outer cosmos renders Him completely unrecognizable by the majority of Christians.  If that particularly vague image of Abrahamic god were remotely true, then the Bible would be no longer than a band flyer at Bonnaroo.

The data shows that 86% of Protestants and a whopping 94% of Evangelicals take the Bible as the "net word of god."  52% of Evangelicals take the Bible literally--all of it.  41% of Protestants do the same.  For Bible literalists, that means the earth is 6,000 years and God is an old bearded guy in the sky sporting a bathrobe. And guess what: they are certain this is true because of faith.

I think Peter Boghossian put is best when he said vague definitions of gods and faith are transparent attempts to avoid criticism.  But here he helps us out a bit.  He contends that faith is not only belief without evidence, but faith is really "pretending to know something you don't."

But don't take my word for the above data.  Here's a link to all the 2012 Pew Research on Religious belief in the United States.   The specific data quoted is under the Views of Scripture section.

31 comments:

  1. Of course, there are plenty of faith-attesters who make no pretense of knowing. My sense is that any particular dfn will be rejected by someone. So we really need a nest of dfns we can "cherry-pick" as context requires.

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  2. Nest and ye shall receive. I'll post it above from a collection from Boghossian.

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  3. Here's Pew's most specific data regarding American religious affiliation, if anyone's interested: http://religions.pewforum.org/pdf/affiliations-all-traditions.pdf

    For those keeping score, Evangelical Protestants and all their subgroups are around 26% of the adult population, Catholics are 24%, Mainline Protestants make up 18%, and the next-largest group? Why, that would be the unaffiliated 16% of us (10% of whom--i.e., 1.6% of the general population, profess Atheism).

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    1. I know! Violence is the only way to settle which faith is actually true.

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  5. I didnt see a post from my group so yeahhhhhh.

    FQ: What are the three Abrahamic religions? What are they often referred to as?

    (the apotheosis of religion) pg65 RHP

    DQ: Do you agree that viewing yourself as an ever changing being instead of a permanent being is better/ vice versa.


    I totally agree with Dean about Peter Boghossian giving the best explaination best when he said vague definitions of gods and faith are transparent attempts to avoid criticism. when asked a question about there God that they do not know the answer to one can easily say " but that's the mystery of ____ god". It always seemed a little unfair to me that theist can avoid the questions with the most pertinent answers. As far as faith goes (i may just be a negative-Nancy ) i feel like that is an easy way to set your self up for disappointment. Yes you can have "faith" in a chair to hold you up because that is what it is intended to do, but if it does not you cannot blame the chair but yourself for putting "faith" in something that has a chance of letting you down. faith is in my opinion not something to live on i may have "faith" that the chair will hold me up but if it does and i continue to sit in the same chair for the rest of my life and it eventually breaks (or i die) I only know one method of holding myself up (literally and emotionally).

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  6. So majority rules on religious dogma? Is that how it works? I don't think that's even remotely fair.

    I do a damn-lot amount of studying of philosophy, theology, Scripture, Church History, etc. to come to my conclusions. Lots of reading. Lots of hashing out thoughts and debating ideas, yet some yahoo with a "Just Jesus" t-shirt and a fish symbol on his car but hasn't cracked open a Systematic Theology book EVER (probably doesn't even know what that is), nor could even begin to explain the differences between compatibilism and libertarian free will (let alone the debate of supralapsarianism vs. infralapsarianism vs. sublapsarianism) is treated as knowing just as much about his faith as I do?

    Can you see how that's a problem, simply going by majority rules?

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  7. Hi Adam,

    I always enjoy our religious debates at Happy Hour, and it's great having you in class.

    Let us continue.

    "So majority rules on religious dogma? Is that how it works? I don't think that's even remotely fair."

    I think it's fair to point out the obvious: you along with the majority, when making supernatural claims about the nature of God, ultimately are basing those claims on faith or divine revelation. My point is that faith, as a source of knowledge, is completely and utterly unreliable.

    You're a smart guy. I would be willing to bet you know way more about church history, philosophy, and Scripture than your average Joe wearing a "Just Jesus" t-shirt. But here's the catch: when it comes to declaring the logical order of God's decrees of eternal salvation (supralapsarianism vs. infralapsarianism vs. sublapsarianism), both of you are on the same unsubstantiated metaphysical footing. The obvious question is to ask, "how do you know (justify) these supernatural claims about knowing the mind of a specific god."

    The problem is that faith is an epistemological system grounded in faith and revelation. Faith and revelation are demonstrably unreliable predictors of events and reality.

    Further, your theological expertise in the supernatural isn't anything special, to say the least (it's an oxymoron at best). All religions claim to be the one "true" religion. As a student of religion, you know that out of the thousands of mutually exclusive religions, and there is far from any consensus with Christianity itself. (You and I previously argued whether there are 10,000 or 41,000 divisions. I think that 's a moot point because religious claims of certainty and ultimate faith-based Truth with only two divisions is problematic--much less 10,000.)

    "Can you see how that's a problem, simply going by majority rules?"

    There are nearly 7 billion people on the planet engaged with thousands of "true" religions. The whole of Christianity makes up less than one third of that population. That means over two thirds of the planet believes in thousands of completely different and incompatible theologies from the one you are claiming to be true.

    Yes, I can see how that's a problem--not for me--but for you.

    Are you maintaing that you're the one person who has somehow chosen the "correct" god, and that particular god has given you the correct version of that particular religion--in light of over 6 billion people making the same exact claim?

    They all can't be right, but they all can be wrong.

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  8. (FYI: I am not mad at ALL; I just like to write sassy. Nothing here is a diatribe against anyone. :P )

    Part 1

    "I think it's fair to point out the obvious: you along with the majority, when making supernatural claims about the nature of God, ultimately are basing those claims on faith or divine revelation. My point is that faith, as a source of knowledge, is completely and utterly unreliable."

    I reject the definition of faith that has been used in the class. I consider it as much a straw man as Kirk Cameron's "explanations" of evolution are straw men. As I've stated before, Christian faith is necessarily synergistic to facts, to evidence. Otherwise, it's "blind faith", which is reserved for fundamentalism, as well as for many Roman Catholics and Eastern Orthodox (but definitely not all of the latter two).

    As for the debate of supra vs. infra vs. sub, that was merely an example. It's actually a debate I don't really have much of a dog in the fight (except perhaps sub; it depends). I don't see how it being a metaphysical argument really detracts in any way the fact that it's something the vast majority of Christians aren't even aware of. I think that to complain about me giving a metaphysical example of arguments in Christianity is...odd.

    "The problem is that faith is an epistemological system grounded in faith and revelation. Faith and revelation are demonstrably unreliable predictors of events and reality."

    Like I stated before; this is an inaccurate view of faith. Faith without evidence is not faith; it's gullibility. I think a better way to understand faith (since it seems to carry a lot of inaccurate and misleading baggage with the atheist community) is FAITHFULNESS. My faithfulness is to God; His is to me.

    As for faith and revelation being "demonstrably unreliable predictors of events and reality"...I think that that's an odd statement. Surely, there is faith that is in the wrong thing; surely, someone's "revelation" can be illusory...so? I woke up feeling like ants were crawling all over my arm. Guess what? No ants were on my arm. So do I forever more reject any sensory information coming from my arm, the epistemological emo who can't trust his arm because it "lied" to him once? Do we ever stop to think that, if we believe we've had a revelation, and things turn out differently from what we predicted from it, that WE might have predicted it incorrectly? If I have faith that something will happen, is it wish fulfillment; a sort of "name it and claim it" bull shit? Sorry, I'm not ready to reject God's existence because He didn't give me all of the candy I wanted when I was five years old. God's not Santa Claus (that's St. Nikolaos of Myra! :P ). God doesn't pull bunnies out of His magic hat when our two year olds scream at the top of their lungs for bunnies. (continued...)

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    1. Part 2


      "Further, your theological expertise in the supernatural isn't anything special, to say the least (it's an oxymoron at best)."

      ^^^That seems to be begging the question, in an informal way. I mean, if I agreed with you concerning that...I wouldn't be rational to be studying this in the same way and for the same reason, now, would I?


      "All religions claim to be the one "true" religion. As a student of religion, you know that out of the thousands of mutually exclusive religions, and there is far from any consensus with Christianity itself. (You and I previously argued whether there are 10,000 or 41,000 divisions. I think that 's a moot point because religious claims of certainty and ultimate faith-based Truth with only two divisions is problematic--much less 10,000.)"

      ^^^Now THIS is something that needs to be cleared out: it is BEYOND false to claim that "all religions claim to be the one 'true' religion" if you're joining that argument with the "10,000-40,000 denominations" argument. Let me provide a completely non-exhaustive list, off the top of my head, of Christian denominations that DON'T believe that they are the "one true religion":

      Anglican (ACNA, my denomination)
      Episcopal
      United Methodist
      United Church of Christ
      Free Will Baptist
      Southern Baptist
      Northern Baptist
      Reformed Baptist
      Wesleyan
      Church of the Nazarene
      Adventist
      Church of God
      Presbyterian (PCA)
      Presbyterian (PCUSA)
      Presbyterian (OPC)
      Independent Methodist
      Brethren Churches (multiple denominations, there)
      Bible Churches
      Calvary Chapel Churches
      Non-denominational Churches
      Lutheran (ELCA)
      Dutch Reformed
      Missionary Baptist

      That's 23 off the top of my head, and I can keep going. Once again, this is by NO means exhaustive. (continued...)

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    2. Part 3

      So what are these denominations all doing differently? Well, there are minor differences among many of them on various topics. Mostly, the differences are in worship, emphases of theology, love and admiration for particular Christians, and church structure. I'll give myself as an example: I absolutely LOVE the theology of John Wesley (the various Methodist and Wesleyan groups). I also love the high liturgy of my Anglican Church (Wesley was actually an Anglican priest, by the way, and died as one.). As an Anglican, I can hold to the theology of Wesley, while worshipping with a high liturgy. No problem whatsoever with my priest.. I hold to annihilationism, which claims that "Hell" is simply death: no burning for all of eternity, just death, and that's it. Adventists and Jehovah's Witnesses hold to that. My priest has no problem whatsoever. I'm an Arminian, and my priest leans far more on the Calvinist side. Again, no problem from my priest (keep in mind that I talk to my priest about my theology all of the time, and he's the one who decides whether or not I'm allowed to be a priest so long as I stay at this church [and I do want to be a priest]. If he had major problems with my theology, he would have told me.). These things cross over, and no harm is done. Now, that's not to say that EVERY church will accept EVERY one of my (or my priest's) position. But most of them would accept at least most of it.

      So I reject your claim that "all religions claim to be the one 'true' religion", since that claim is so obviously NOT true.

      "There are nearly 7 billion people on the planet engaged with thousands of "true" religions. The whole of Christianity makes up less than one third of that population. That means over two thirds of the planet believes in thousands of completely different and incompatible theologies from the one you are claiming to be true."

      ^^^If incompatible beliefs were what kept us from the positive end of religion, then FUCK--I think that all but at BEST one of us are screwed...Truth is, EVERYONE has beliefs that contradict SOMEONE else. So? Who cares? I mean, I care for academic purposes and for a desire to better understand Truth, but I would NEVER claim that someone who's beliefs were not EXACTLY mine--or even 70% the same as mine--is not going to be a part of New Creation. As indicated earlier, most Christian denominations are friendly and loving towards each other. We have our opinions on the finer points of theology, but we pretty much all consider each other faithful Christians.

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  9. Thanks for your reply, Adam. I think we've made some progress, and further progress will be made since you are willing to admit that faith without evidence is gullibility, which you might even agree is delusional.

    You've put quite a bit on the table, so I'll try and address what we agree on and where we might disagree. Since you reject the majority Christian belief that the Bible is the 'net word of God'--which the word "net" indicates some cherry picking at hand--it would be helpful if you gave us your particular definition of the Christian God(s) as well as your definition of faith, just so we're on the same page.

    When you state those definitions, I'll address your claims that hinge on those particular definitions. I don't want to go chasing the god of the moving goalpost. Until then, I'll work through some of your generalities.

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    1. God: Creator of time/space and matter/energy, of the laws of physics, Who is working out an ages-long story, in which all of humanity actively participates.

      Faith: (interpersonal definition) A substantiated dependence upon another person, based on past experience with that person, with the assumption that that person will continue acting in like manner towards you.

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  10. "I reject the definition of faith that has been used in the class. I consider it as much a straw man as Kirk Cameron's "explanations" of evolution are straw men."

    I don't doubt that you personally reject the definition of "faith" used in this class. But please keep in mind, this is not my definition: this is the definition that is borne out of statements made from the majority of Christian Biblical hermeneutics that you so strongly reject. When Christians claim with unshakable certainty that they take it on faith that the earth is 6,000 years old, defining "faith" as 'belief without reason and evidence,' or 'pretending to know something you don't' isn't derisive or pejorative--it's simply a fact. If one takes the Bible literally, then "faith" means holding a belief no matter what the evidence shows. This is simply pretending, delusion, or, as you stated, gullibility.

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    1. " this is the definition that is borne out of statements made from the majority of Christian Biblical hermeneutics that you so strongly reject"

      ^^^No, that's not true. Please quote me some theologians who hold to that definition of faith.

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  11. "As I've stated before, Christian faith is necessarily synergistic to facts, to evidence."

    This statement is false under any possible interpretation. (Please see the above paragraph.)

    Moreover, dismissing out-of-hand or simply ignoring faith-based Christian beliefs that are undeniably at odds with reality doesn't make them go away. The problem is the foundation and formulation of these beliefs, and those beliefs are taken on faith. Faith is the common thread running through all the confusion over facts and evidence.

    I'm not saying that all Christians are home-schooled quiver-full young-earth Creationists praying for the Rapture and yearning for Christian theocracy, but lets not simply ignore the numbers, and more importantly, the source of those beliefs: faith.

    "As for faith and revelation being "demonstrably unreliable predictors of events and reality"...I think that that's an odd statement. Surely, there is faith that is in the wrong thing; surely, someone's "revelation" can be illusory...so?"

    Simply saying my statement is "odd" doesn't advance the argument, but the "so" in your statement is telling. Are you suggesting that "sensory information" is your basis for epistemology? If so, it's not clear how one could determine delusion from reality. Is this the "evidence" from which you are basing your beliefs--this closed-system epistemology? Do you see this at all problematic? If not, this might explain the thousands of gods and thousands of religions we spoke of earlier.

    The reason I'm concerned about the "so" is theists are killing one another to this day because their faith-based epistemology lends certainty to the belief that their god and their religion is the One True Religion. Deluded people have been killing each other for centuries over faith-based delusion. That's a legitimate concern about what counts as true. This fact makes faith-base epistemology is not only demonstrably unreliable, but dangerous.

    I too care about what is true. Accordingly, I'm more interested in what method one uses to determine what is true.

    A question I would propose to you is this: what would it take for you to abandon you faith? This is important because there's no sense in debating with you if you aren't willing to change your mind. Are you willing to change your mind about your beliefs in light of evidence?

    Also, I look forward to your definition of the Christian God(s), and your definition of "faith" so we can continue this debate if you're open to changing your mind about your faith.

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    1. I just want to add my 2 cents very briefly. As Dean said, "The reason I'm concerned about the "so" is theists are killing one another to this day because their faith-based epistemology lends certainty to the belief that their god and their religion is the One True Religion. Deluded people have been killing each other for centuries over faith-based delusion. That's a legitimate concern about what counts as true. This fact makes faith-base epistemology is not only demonstrably unreliable, but dangerous."

      This is undeniable fact. Nobody even blinks an eye when they hear atheists refer to 9/11 as a "Faith-Based Initiative." We're concerned by the fact that people have beliefs for which they're willing to die, and more importantly, for which they're willing to kill. Now that doesn't say anything about the veracity of their beliefs, but it's something we desire to examine.

      I'd further like to request, as Dean said earlier, that you provide your definition of the Christian God so that we don't have to keep making generalizations about faith just because we don't exactly know what we're debating. It's a bit like a blind man in a boxing match, we may be landing a few blows but it's not like we'd ever know what's really working, we'd just be taking shots in the dark.

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    2. "Are you suggesting that "sensory information" is your basis for epistemology? If so, it's not clear how one could determine delusion from reality."

      ^^^Dean that is both telling and concerning. Are you even aware that--whether or not I hold to this, which I don't--this is EXACTLY your view in epistemology? You are a materialist, are you not? What else is your epistemology based on, if not on sensory information? Like, REALLY? -_-

      "A question I would propose to you is this: what would it take for you to abandon you faith? This is important because there's no sense in debating with you if you aren't willing to change your mind. Are you willing to change your mind about your beliefs in light of evidence?"

      Essentially, any historical breakthroughs concerning Jesus that would deny any and/or all of the following: 1) His existence, 2) His death on the cross, 3) His Resurrection.


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    3. "Essentially, any historical breakthroughs concerning Jesus that would deny any and/or all of the following: 1) His existence, 2) His death on the cross, 3) His Resurrection."

      Okay, thanks. I think we're getting somewhere. I'll be happy to share my epistemology with you, but for now, let's not divert attention away from your proposition, which, if I'm reading you correctly, is that Jesus is the son of a god. If this it not what your are claiming, my apologies. If so, let's proceed.

      The next obvious question is: how could you possibly know that Jesus is the son of a god?

      Even, for the sake of argument, if I were to concede that Jesus existed and was crucified, that isn't sufficient proof that he's the son of a god. One would have to accept this proposition on faith, no? If not, where's the evidence for this claim.

      Please note that the Bible, even if there were some possible "correct" interpretation (there's no evidence for that whatsoever), is the proposition, not the conclusion. Most holy texts from various religions claim to be true. I'm sure you can see the circularity in that.

      If you're taking it on faith, you have to realize that billions of people believe in other gods based on the very same "evidence," which is based in their particular "true" holy books inspired by gods or written by prophets.

      If one subscribes to that basis for epistemology, then there's no reason to doubt any of the other gods I posted earlier. The "evidence" is essentially the same.

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    4. "your proposition..is that Jesus is the son of a god."

      ^^^No, not at all. I specifically never said that Jesus is the Son of God for a very specific reason. The term "Son of God" is a political term with a very real meaning back in the first century. It was a largely political meaning. Caesar himself was called "the son of God"; with this title, the force behind it is that Jesus takes Caesar's place as the ruler of the world.

      On top of that, this term gets in the way for the very reason you just demonstrated: you equivocated (no offense, but you do that a LOT) and acted as though "Son of God" means the exact same as "son of a god". No, those two phrases are about as much the same as "car with hot wheels" and "hotwheels car".

      Let's stick with what I exclaimed: those three points are historically falsifiable, as opposed to the claim that Jesus is the Son of God, which is not historically falsifiable.

      "Even, for the sake of argument, if I were to concede that Jesus existed and was crucified, that isn't sufficient proof that he's the son of a god. One would have to accept this proposition on faith, no? If not, where's the evidence for this claim."

      ^^^You conveniently left out the third proposition.

      "Please note that the Bible, even if there were some possible "correct" interpretation (there's no evidence for that whatsoever), is the proposition, not the conclusion. Most holy texts from various religions claim to be true. I'm sure you can see the circularity in that."

      ^^^Except that historians, both religious and secular, agree with me on two and a half of these points: they agree with me on points one and two, and agree with me that the immediate followers of Jesus genuinely believed that they had physically met with the Resurrected Jesus, so much that they were willing to die for that claim (and they did die for that claim). Historians agree that they BELIEVED He rose again (and that they genuinely believed it); they just aren't willing to say that He actually did do so. Why? Literally the only evidence against it is that it's such a miraculous event. There's no explanation otherwise that makes sense: the body wasn't stolen, the body wasn't misplaced, the disciples weren't hallucinating or simply imagining that Jesus was in the room for a moment, Jesus didn't "pretend" to die, Jesus didn't have a twin brother, etc. All of these have been proposed and shot down by the academics who study history. So I need an historical explanation that can fit with the historical evidence we have.

      Furthermore, you can't demand the INCREDIBLY limited tools of science be used for a discipline like history. I'm sorry, but it takes more than a simple, "It's logically possible that XYZ, therefore it's likely that XYZ, therefore XYZ is the ONLY POSSIBLE CONCLUSION" to refute historical evidence.


      "If you're taking it on faith, you have to realize that billions of people believe in other gods based on the very same "evidence," which is based in their particular "true" holy books inspired by gods or written by prophets."


      ^^^Actually, no. Please demonstrate another religion with as much historical evidence for its most important, supernatural claims (For Christianity, it's the Life, Death, and Resurrection of Jesus the Messiah).


      For fun:

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s0-EgjUhRqA

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  12. This is just 11 paragraphs of handwaving to avoid my questions.

    Does your god have a son or not? If so, how do you know this?

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    1. Recall that I never put that in any of my three claims. Why must I defend this? Do you understand the concept of a political title? Who's moving the goalposts now?

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    2. Yeah...typical goalpost move. I expect nothing less from atheists. In the future, try to be honest and stick with what you say you want to stick with, and don't accuse me of what you will end up doing (moving the goalposts).

      Yes and no: Yes, God has a "Son" as a title. No, God does not have a son that was reproduced by sexual means from God.

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    3. "I expect nothing less from atheists." Wow. That's a pretty blatant foul, a classic ad hominem. Let's all try and raise the bar ofdiscussion here, shall we? This particular thread seems to have exhausted itself, and anyone with the patience to try and follow it. Play nice, kids.

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    4. But just one more thing, if you'll indulge me. Adam, I'm not sure which Southern Baptists you've dealt with, but the ones who tried to indoctrinate me-- a midwestern chapter-- definitely represented their faith as the ONE TRUE RELIGION. Maybe that makes them bad Southern Baptists, but it's not my impression that it makes them atypical.

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    5. 1) It's an ad hominem, but not an ad hominem fallacy. My ad hominem was in response to him holding me to one set of standards (don't move the goalposts) while holding himself to an entirely different set of standards (I can move the goalposts whenever I feel like it, and how dare you point that out? I'm simply going to dismiss your response--which did respond to the question he posed, anyway--and act like you were avoiding the question, which was a question almost entirely unrelated to the criteria you gave to disprove the existence of God).

      2) As for Southern Baptists, they're a wildly diverse group. Being a southern denomination (they actually separated from the other Baptists because they wanted to keep slavery legal), they are largely a confederation of churches. You can literally start a Southern Baptist church and be against the Trinity, the Divinity of Christ, etc. Conceivably, you can start an atheist church in the Southern Baptist Convention (although it's not happened to my knowledge). So, there is a wide range of "types" of Southern Baptists. Most of them, by far, are quite ecumenical.

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  13. "I expect nothing less from atheists."

    This statement is just childish and immature. You haven't presented any substantive arguments--just a reappropriation of terms.

    Arguing with you is an exercise in Lewis Caroll's Humpty Dumpty.

    I'm done with you.

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    1. If I had known you would move the goalposts, I would have not engaged in the bait and switch.

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    2. I sincerely do apologize, Dean, for my harsh words. I was getting frustrated because the way the conversation had been going. Please forgive me.

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