Let's not forget also to go over last time's posted comments, and finish discussing ch's 1-2 before moving on to 3-4.
1. The Euthyphro Dilemma implies what about the properties of goodness? (39)
2. What is Kierkegaard's (and Woody Allen's) existentialist point about Abraham and morality? (42)
3. Morality is about acting in whose best interests? (44)
4. What's the "first step in moral thinking"? (49)
5. Does Baggini think it matters whether judgments like "pain is bad" are factual? (52)
6. Did Sartre deny that human life lacks purpose or meaning? (58)
7. What's problematic about seeking meaning in life by serving somebody else's purposes? (59) [And see Rick & Morty on passing the butter, below]
8. What "vital point" do we miss, if we focus too much on goals? (65)
9. What dilemma arises from reflections on eternal bliss or nirvana? (70)
Discussion Questions
- Can you admit the truth of cultural relativism without admitting the ultimate arbitrariness of moral judgments? If you insist on objectivity in morals, must you reject cultural relativism?
- Which is the more important choice, Abraham's (to follow what he perceives as a divine command) or his peers' (to follow the rule of law and humane ethics)?
- What do you think David Hume meant when he said reason is and should be the slave of the passions? Do you agree? Must reason and feeling be antagonistic or hierarchical?
- Do you agree with Aristotle's characterization of a good person? 48
- Do you agree that the mere fact of consequences is enough to "get morality going"? 49 If you were stranded on an island alone, would you still (in principle at least) be subject to ethical evaluation and accountability?
- What do you think of the "nihilistic mantra"? 57 What's your answer to the question "why do you bother to get up in the mornings"? (See RD's reply...)
- Do you believe your life has an externally-imposed and objective purpose? If not, do you regret that?
- Is it possible to live meaningfully without goals?
- Does evolution confer meaning?
- Do you think most people lead meaningful-enough lives? Could they, if they appreciated life's simple goods?
- Do you know any stereotypically-shallow atheists? (68) Or theists?
- Do you want to live longer, or forever? Would your life mean more to you, if you did?
- Who's your favorite celeb atheist?
- Have you traveled in a place like the Czech Republic? Was it unpleasantly devoid of meaning?
- Post your DQs, comments, etc.
U@d 1.26.16:
In Atheism & Philosophy, we look (with Julian Baggini) at godless ethics and meaning. The main takeaway: being good is a challenge for us all, with or without a heavenly host and role-model; and so is the quest for significance. You can't simply assign goodness or meaning to an external law-and-purpose-Giver and be done with it, we must each appropriate and perpetually re-appropriate the point and integrity of our lives. That goes for gods and humans alike, who must (Euthyphro should have learned from Socrates) all acknowledge the reasonableness of independent standards.
William James: "The solid meaning of life is always the same eternal thing,— the marriage, namely, of some unhabitual ideal, however special, with some fidelity, courage, and endurance; with some man's or woman 's pains.—And, whatever or wherever life may be, there will always be the chance for that marriage to take place."
In Atheism & Philosophy, we look (with Julian Baggini) at godless ethics and meaning. The main takeaway: being good is a challenge for us all, with or without a heavenly host and role-model; and so is the quest for significance. You can't simply assign goodness or meaning to an external law-and-purpose-Giver and be done with it, we must each appropriate and perpetually re-appropriate the point and integrity of our lives. That goes for gods and humans alike, who must (Euthyphro should have learned from Socrates) all acknowledge the reasonableness of independent standards.
William James: "The solid meaning of life is always the same eternal thing,— the marriage, namely, of some unhabitual ideal, however special, with some fidelity, courage, and endurance; with some man's or woman 's pains.—And, whatever or wherever life may be, there will always be the chance for that marriage to take place."
Also of note:
Way More Americans May Be Atheists Than We Thought ...
https://fivethirtyeight.com/.../way-more-americans-may-be-atheists-than-we-thought/
May 18, 2017 - The number of atheists in the U.S. is still a matter of considerable debate. Recent surveys have found that only about one in 10 Americans report that they do not believe in God, and only about 3 percent identify as atheist. But a new study suggests that the true number of atheists could be much larger, ...10 facts about atheists | Pew Research Center
www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/06/01/10-facts-about-atheists/
Jun 1, 2016 - But one thing is for sure: Along with the rise of religiously unaffiliated Americans (Atheism in America: Why won't the U.S. accept its atheists?
www.slate.com/.../atheism_in_america_why_won_t_the_u_s_accept_its_atheists_.html
Feb 5, 2012 - But neither her sexuality nor her unwed parenthood are enough to make Renee Johnson anAmerican conservative's worst nightmare. As she explained to me when I met her at Rains County Library, “I'd rather have a big 'L' or 'lesbian' written across my shirt than a big 'A' or 'atheist', because people are ...
Is it possible to live meaningfully without goals?
ReplyDeleteI think it is possible to leave a meaningful life without goals. One would probably tend to live in the moment more than anything, and that's probably a hard thing to do. Taking everything as it comes. But, I do not think it is possible to live a life without goals...I don't see how that happens.
This is something I struggle with regularly, not because I have trouble finding meaning, but I find meaning in everything. It's difficult to choose a goal when everything seems so...immediate? Important? Final? This has been a transition, moving from a hyper-religious worldview to an irreligious one. I used to attribute meaning to my life under completely different, often external guidelines; now I find it's my responsibility to discover a meaning for myself. The trouble lies in my often flighty nature. I long for eternal satisfaction, even now, and find solace in recognizing that when I die, my body will dissolve into its smallest fragments and return to its origins in the stuff of the universe, the primordial goo.
DeleteI think it is entirely possible to live without goals, and even to feel that your life is meaningful. But I don't think it's possible to live the kind of life that outlasts itself by leaving a mark, if you aren't actively working towards something.
Quiz/discussion questions
ReplyDeleteWhat is the purpose of the robot in the comic clip above? And what did you think about this clip correlating it with the two chapters we have just read.
Do you want to live longer, or forever? Would your life mean more to you, if you did?
ReplyDeleteNo. Whenever it is my time to go, I will be ready. I am not afraid of the ideas of death and what may or may not be waiting for me on "the other side." My life is meaningful to me whether or not if I live through the end of tomorrow. I do not think the amount of time I lived on this Earth would matter because I would only become a distant memory one day, anyways. I wouldn't even have the opportunity to regret anything... because I would be dead.
Quiz/Discussion Question...
How do you feel about the ideas of obeying authority? If you were in Abraham's shoes, what would you have done?
If I were to hear voices in my head convincing me to kill my hypothetical offspring, I'd probably go see a psychiatrist. However, if I were literally the biblical figure Abraham, I would be concerned about who was speaking to me. Assuming a context of biblical mythology, how did Abraham know whether God or Satan was speaking to him? Satan certainly seems like a figure that would tell someone to kill a child.
DeleteI certainly agree with the question you have proposed to us. From my understanding, the Devil is known to disguise himself in ways that will be appealing to us as an individual in order to persuade us to further his will of devious ways upon us, if that makes sense. However, from the other viewpoint, you are meant to have faith in the words of the Lord and believe it is Him speaking with you. Personally, I wouldn't kill my family no matter who was telling me that I needed to... but that's just me.
DeleteI had a conversation with my mother of all people about this. The conversation came to the question of if the Bible would be more believable if it were purely an ethical document, commandments on living a good life. But if the purpose was to get people to believe in God, I would have cut out all the moralizing in the edit. Make it ALL crazy divine supernatural stuff. Burning bush screaming at a man on a mountain to take his folks on a cross country hike. Dude gets eaten by a whale and is A-OK. Lions don't eat a dude because an angel shows up and says "Hey cut that out." A floating entity speaking with the Voice of God tells a man to kill his son, then shows back up to say "Nah just a test." Tell a dude to make the biggest boat he can, then FLOOD THE WORLD. I'd be far more willing to believe if I saw the Hand of God every other day like seemed to happen in the scripture. Hard to not believe when someone's getting smote on the sidewalk every couple days because reasons. But then again, is that a God we'd want to worship?
Delete...I mean, I wouldn't want to, but if that keeps the smiting at bay, I'd at least pay it lip service, yeah?
God is like a parent and when your parents tells you to do something you do it because you trust that they know whats best for you and wouldn't do anything to harm you. In this story God was never planning for Abraham to kill his son because God had told him he would have a son but this story is a story of faith, God was testing his faith to see if he believed him like he said he did.
DeleteAs for me my faith now I would obey what he saying to me because of the relationship and trust i have for him.
Does evolution confer meaning?
ReplyDeleteNo. It suffers the same affliction as the Sartre "essence" concept. Evolution imparts only the biological urge to procreate. It gives a function, not significance or meaning (61).
Quiz Question
ReplyDeleteWhat are Kant's two types of imperatives?
Be excellent to each other, and party on dudes.
DeleteWait.
Wait no.
Close enough!
Delete"Who's your favorite celeb atheist?"
ReplyDeleteI'm personally partial to Richard Dawkins. I've watched quite a few of the debates he has participated in, and he is certainly an intelligent man. While I'm skeptical of his hardline stance that religion has no benefits, it's interesting to see it put up against other viewpoints.
•Do you agree that the mere fact of consequences is enough to "get morality going"?
ReplyDeleteI feel many persons that are without a framework of socialized morality (whatever that may be for the persons in question) often have consequences placed upon them that do in fact start morality. At least from my personal life I myself have went from an uncaring self-serving being to a growing pillar of moral bearing, without the help of a divine connection beyond those around me on my path. Military experiences tend to do this for some.
Supplemental Question: Could unequal sentencing practices within our prison population be attributed towards "our belief" as a country of God and morality being one and the same?
ReplyDeleteI tend to think a lot about how judgments coming from faith based positions could warp the ability of justice to be handed out appropriately.
"In order for a few to be immortal many must die", this is a quote from the movie In Time, and given the nature of the words does it not seem that an eternal life would be a curse even if it was spent in a state of bliss?
ReplyDeleteWho's your favorite celeb atheist?
ReplyDeleteNeil Degrasse Tyson is my favorite because of his passion for astronomy and trying to understand the unknown.
Do you believe your life has an externally-imposed and objective purpose? If not, do you regret that?
ReplyDeleteNo, I do not and no, I do not. I feel that not having an imposed purpose frees me to decide what or who I want to be.
That being said, I could see where someone would like the comfort of having their lives and decisions made for them, though that kind of attitude can lead to cults and worse.
There is "adult language" in this clip, as a heads up. Still, I like it and think it's appropriate.
ReplyDeletehttp://youtu.be/XAVDXIA00ic
favorite celeb atheist.
ReplyDelete"There doesn't need to be a god for me. There's something in people spiritual, thats godlike. I don't feel like doing things just because people say things, but i also don't really know if it's better to just not believe in anything, either." Angelina Jolie
Do you believe your life has an externally-imposed and objective purpose? If not, do you regret that?
ReplyDeleteNo and no. I think that the ability to decide for myself not only gives me a better attitude about life, but also makes me feel more responsible for my own actions, life choices, etc.
Our group looked at the question as to whether or not evolution conferred meaning. We decided that while it may not confer meaning in and of itself, the fact that we evolved reason kind of created the fact that we are the only beings capable of looking for meaning.
ReplyDeleteDilvin, Jason, and I discussed the true ring of consequence being an ignition to morality. Given the natural state of being we are all never without a sense of relation be it social or environmental unless you make the choice against it to do so. So even being in isolation, consequence of thought can take hold and give pause to a now seen lower decision and choose higher paths independent of faith.
ReplyDeleteJay, Jack, and I looked at the question of Whether or not you could live a fulfilled life, without goals. The discussion became more or less us talking about what determines a fulfilled life. Each of us had different view point of fulfillment, but we agreed that to each person, fulfillment in life is based on how the person views their life. If they are content without having goals, they are fulfilled in their existence.
ReplyDeletePhil, Lance and I discussed the choices made by Abraham and his peers'. We agreed that we would probably all be a little concerned if a voice or presence that claimed ultimate divinity commanded us to kill our children. That being said, in the case that the God of Abraham was truly as it is biblically described as all knowing and all loving, then perhaps Abraham's choice was the most important. However, we essentially agreed that this choice is only more important than that to follow "humane ethics" in the case that a truly all-powerful God is speaking to us. Moreover, a majority of our group seemed to perceive the likelihood of being addressed by God as very minute, and therefore, following humane ethics would be a more important decision. This led to more discussion of whether or not humane ethics are actually inherent, or if morals are just a system established by human life to yield the most favorable results for the population.
ReplyDeleteA continuation on the discussion of evolution and morality:
ReplyDeleteIf morality is merely a byproduct of social evolution that we have developed by understanding the consequences of certain actions, does this not create a dilemma? If there is no objective standard of morality that has been always present and morality has just evolved by understanding consequences then mustn't the atheist say that there is no inherent value in following the morals other than avoidance of consequences. However, Baggini argues that if one merely follows moral decisions to avoid the negative consequences then that isn't morality at all (pg. 40). For example if pedophilia is only immoral because we have realized that it has negative consequences for ourselves then it is not morality at all but just avoiding consequences. But if pedophilia is inherently wrong wouldn't the only option left be to say that there is some sort of objective standard of morality that has always been present?
I think it is a mistake to only think about morality in terms of consequences. There are other important factors to consider as well. There's empathy, a sense of fairness, etc. There's a TED talk by Frans de Waal here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GcJxRqTs5nk that doesn't even scratch the surface of the issue, but may still be a good starting point.
DeleteAustin, Steven, and I discussed ways in which cultures have changed their morality throughout history, but we were still discussing the issue when the class time ran out.
ReplyDeleteJenna G. Quentin H, and Andrew H. We shared our favorite celebrity atheists and discussed whether or not one could live a meaningful life without goals; we agreed this would largely depend on one's definition of a goal.
ReplyDeleteRe: Can you admit the truth of cultural relativism without admitting the ultimate arbitrariness of moral judgments? If you insist on objectivity in morals, must you reject cultural relativism?
ReplyDeleteThought experiment: We live in a community where we know, for a fact, that every 10 years there will be a terrible famine and we will only be able to support 20 people and still be healthy enough to survive. So our culture, over the decades and generations, develops systems where on the 9th year of the cycle, we cast out the excess people from our group. We send out the weakest, least able of us, those that will help the least in rebuilding or are generally unlikely to survive anyway. Is this evil/immoral? Does harming the few so the many can survive constitute an acceptable evil? And further, if you are an outside observer of this now cultural ritual, can you judge the community for doing what they must to survive?
"Excess people" - that's a chilling expression. We don't think ourselves expendable, none of us (though of course there are heroes who are prepared to sacrifice themselves for what they perceive as the greater good). How then can we in conscience propose to sacrifice anyone else?
DeleteThis sounds a lot like the Mayor's Dilemma my Bioethics class will ponder this afternoon, remind me to share it in A&P.
I think it would be acceptable because no one stays in great health forever. There will come a time when you won't be able to move around like you used to. It's just natural. So, when it came to be your time to get thrown out, just remember you have witnessed so many more.
DeleteAlso there is survival of the fittest. Germs are everywhere. They are tiny living killing machines. But all they want to do is multiply and survive.
Do you want to live longer, or forever? Would your life mean more to you, if you did?
ReplyDeleteI want to live a longer life because in society, there are a wide range of foods that people are consuming that are causing health issues and killing them. So I changed the way I eat and adopted a vegan lifestyle because for me personally that is more healthier. Whether I live a long or short life, I feel that my life is meaningful.
Who's your favorite celeb atheist?
ReplyDeleteWell, my favorite celebrity who happens to be an atheist is Ricky Gervais. I am a fan of some of his comedic work, such as "The Office", but I only just recently discovered he is an atheist (I guess I didn't watch enough of his stand up until now haha). Below is a link to a clip of Ricky Gervais and Stephen Colbert having a funny and interesting conversation about religion and god. Take a look: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P5ZOwNK6n9U
Ricky has a philosophy degree, which shows in his debate with Colbert. His SiriusXM show, Deadly Sirius, is worth checking out, and episodes can be found just by Googling "Deadly Sirius."
DeleteDo you want to live longer, or forever? Would your life mean more to you, if you did?
ReplyDeleteI don't think that living longer or forever will add meaning to my life. I think that meaning comes from within, based on how we view ourselves in relation to the world. I personally find meaning in my life through my relationships and interests/goals, because I want to have a positive impact on the people and world around me while I am here. I don't think it is necessarily about the amount of time that gives life meaning, but rather how that time is used.
Its a beautiful way to live. At any moment we can pass and everything will be physically lost to us. The ones left behind will remember us for how we lived, not how long, time only really comes into play for the fairness of the passing.
DeleteDo you think most people lead meaningful-enough lives? Could they, if they appreciated life's simple goods?
ReplyDeleteI believe that - aside from extremes, like people who murder, or those that harm others - people should be allowed to determine their own paths in life. I don't believe that other individuals can determine the worth or meaningfulness of that individuals life without experiencing it themselves. Meaning comes to people in different ways and from different sources and there is no way to truly appreciate everything life has to offer in one lifetime.
Since this reading covered meaning, I thought to post a link to an explanation of perhaps my favorite philosophical idea: Albert Camus' take on the myth of Sisyphus. Enjoy, the video includes some neat whiteboard drawing!
ReplyDeletehttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kINdkdNOKHo
Thanks for sharing! I enjoyed Camus' view on Sisyphus and Oedipus as these are both two legends that are easily able to be interpreted in a pessimistic sense. It offers a new view on life that is hard to accept, but is comforting.
DeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteI have been to the Czech Republic, and I wouldn't say it was devoid of meaning. Prague is one of the most beautiful cities I've ever seen. It feels ancient and current at the same time. The history of the place seeps through to the present, physically through art and architecture, and emotionally (to me, at least, it was palpable). One thing that stuck out to me was the leftover Soviet architecture, giant blocks jutting out from little clusters of older buildings. The elegance of the older styles was a sharp contrast to the rigid shells of the Soviet period. In some cases, the buildings had been painted in cheerful colors to make them seem less brooding. It was a well-intentioned but failed attempt, like trying to make a buffalo look dainty by putting in a little pink dress.
ReplyDeleteI think meaning is internal. If I didn't know what those big blundering buildings were, they wouldn't have made such an impact.
PS I know we also have ugly buildings here, but we don't have much to rival the architecture in Prague, in most places.
Do you believe your life has an externally-imposed and objective purpose? If not, do you regret that?
ReplyDeleteAn externally-imposed purpose would be supernatural, and no, I don’t. But I am beginning to appreciate that belief in a God-imposed purpose for life has value for some people. If one thinks that that purpose is to be compassionate to others, to do unto others as you would have them do unto you, and if they live their life accordingly, guided by their faith, then they, and we, will be better off.
DQ: Is it possible to live meaningfully without goals?
ReplyDeleteI have difficulty seeing how it is possible to have a meaningful life without goals. At this point in my contemplating the meaning of life, my thinking is that the point of life is life itself; i.e., living. Also, that there is no meaning to life other than what we give it. To give life meaning, we have to do something, to engage with life. Consider the trust-fund baby who spends their day on the couch smoking weed and watching Friends reruns and Black Mirror. They don’t “do” anything, and it is hard for me to say that, for them, life has any meaning. To do something requires some goal, something to work for. The greater the goals, the greater the meaning you give your life.
In Happiness class we asked about the happiest places in the world, a good analogous question for us is where are people living most meaningfully and purposively.
ReplyDelete"Meaning is internal," but so much of what we internalize is built up in shared social activities, values, histories... I think the old Greeks (and Deweyan pragmatists, and Jamesian co-philosophers*) had it right, a purposive and meaningful life is inseparable from the welfare of the community.
*"The pluralistic form takes for me a stronger hold on reality than any other philosophy I know of, being essentially a social philosophy, a philosophy of 'co'"...
Alternative discussion questions:
ReplyDeleteDo you believe individuals can lead more meaningful lives than others? Does that mean there are degrees to meaning? Is meaning subjective to the individual?
Do you feel like some peoples' lives lack meaning? Do you think they consider their lives to be meaningful, even if you do not necessarily think so?
Do you want to live longer, or forever? Would your life mean more to you, if you did?
ReplyDeleteI thought at first that I would like to have a longer life so that I could have longer to do the things I want and not feel so pressured with as short a time as 80-90 years, to allow for setbacks without as much consequence, but upon further thinking, I do not think that a longer life would lead to more meaning or satisfaction, as that all comes from within. I would definitely not like to live forever, as I think it would lead to no meaning and a horrible time.
There's a song I really like that goes along with the idea that eternal life removes meaning and feeling, it's called "If We Were Vampires" by Jason Isbell and the 400 Unit. The whole song is about a pair of lovers who wouldn't be as in love if they did not have limited time, if they were vampires. It's a silly idea and is probably meant to be focused on the love between the pair, but it is a good/simple way to introduce this idea.
Do you believe your life has an externally-imposed and objective purpose? If not, do you regret that?
ReplyDeleteI used to believe that everyone had an externally-imposed purpose, as I was a fully believing Christian, and that caused me a lot of stress and sense of failure. I used to get so distraught trying to figure out my god-given purpose and how I would properly fulfill that. Now, while I am still trying to figure out what to do with my life and that is kind of stressful, I don't feel such a pressure or responsibility to someone or something else besides myself, and I am more focused on trying to find personal fulfillment. I'm no longer focused on what my life's purpose is and meeting that expectation, so I don't regret that.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wRHBwxC8b8I
ReplyDelete